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Post by Dolores on Jan 13, 2013 11:10:54 GMT 10
Hi Tom
I know it is nigh on impossible to give a specific answer especially sight unseen, but as a generalisation I would appreciate some advice if possible.
I have a young dog who has difficulty in running and handling bends.
If he starts on a bend he jumps fine and runs the initial bend well (hasn't really built up speed), however once he hits the second bend he rolls/run off and is losing anywhere up to 10 to 15 lengths; once he enters the straight and balances up again he regains speed.
The dog has been checked by a number of "rated" people - one suggests a problem with the front right shoulder, another his left Fibula, although, even though they found only minor niggles in these regions, another found a slight problem with his lower back but suggested this wouldn't be the cause.
I know it's a "needle in a haystack" question, but what are the main causes of running off (areas of soreness) and are there any areas which could cause the problem but aren't necessarily always initially thought of /
Thanks in advance
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Post by Tom Meulman on Jan 13, 2013 15:25:24 GMT 10
Hi Doloris The problem with a greyhound running off on the bends is that there are so many different injuries that can cause this, and it’s just about impossible to try and pinpoint it without being able to examine the greyhound. Main ones are starting at the front and not in the order of importance: Fractured Sesamoids front or rear railside toes Damaged Accesory carpal ligaments either wrist Hairline fracture in one of the Metacarpals Hairline fracture in the radius either front leg just below the elbow or down low at the base of the radius where it connects to the wrist Hairline fracture low in the ulna Damage to the insertion of the radial muscle at the elbow Spasm in base of the neck affecting the radial nerve Right hock ligaments or metatarsals. Pinched nerve at the L7/S1 junction affecting R/hind leg. A long list and that does not include problems that occur in the shoulder joints, or knee joints that can affect a greyhound primarily when extra pressure is placed on these areas on the turn. Or it could even be a deep seated muscle tear between the hip and hip support going through to the groin. Some greyhounds are extremely stoic and wont show pain unless you can put your finger exactly on the right spot, or can detect the injury by feel alone. It may also be worthwhile reading the posts in THIS thread. Cheers, Tom |
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Post by Dolores on Jan 13, 2013 21:13:35 GMT 10
Thankyou very much Tom, really appreciated.
You're right about being stoic - you could cut the buggar's foot off and I don't think he'd show any signs.
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Post by dolores on Mar 13, 2013 5:30:34 GMT 10
Hi Tom
Further to my initial question
The dog was treated and duly rested for his injuries (front right shoulder and left Fibula), he has now returned to the track for an unlucky second and an impressive win.
I was wondering if you could elaborate on the following for me?
The dog is now actually driving into the first turn and running it really well, however he still seems to struggle in holding a true line coming out of the bend, and is still losing a couple of lengths by running slightly wide.
Again, I realise it is almost impossible to answer sight unseen, but do you think that he may still have an injury or do you think it might simply be momentum forcing him wide (his times are well above average) and he is just over reaching?
In short, is it possible for a dog to really drive into the first bend, run the bend well (rail) but then struggle to hold it's line coming out of it (drift four or five wide) without still carrying an injury somewhere? (He does seem to balance up again quickly in the straight).
(apologies if this sounds a silly question but I'm a real novice).
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Post by Tom Meulman on Mar 14, 2013 4:15:29 GMT 10
Hi Dolores, It is certainly a common problem for a greyhound to have difficulty holding their line and running wide coming out of a bend. In many instances it is due to a reluctance to come back onto the left hind leg knowing it’s going to hurt, and therefore there may still be a problem with your boys left fibula. For a better explanation why this happens THIS POST may be worth a read. Cheers, Tom |
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Post by Dolores on Mar 14, 2013 8:29:08 GMT 10
As always Tom very helpful advice, the "link" article sort of confirmed my thoughts about the fibula possibly still troubling him.
Thankyou for taking the time out to answer my question.
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Post by Jason on Jan 22, 2014 23:46:12 GMT 10
Tom - I have a bitch who runs very wide at apex of bends. She had a tibial crest avulsion on her left leg when young which was wired rather than pinned (I purchased her on the assumption it was pins being used). To cut a long story short, the wires held up to and including break in but broke after her first trial. The wires have been removed (except for one piece which is calcified over by bone) but she continues to run extremely wide on all turns.
Would there be any value in having it pinned to try and correct any damage?, or anything corrective that could be attempted. Radiographically it is not ideal (there is a gap) but the wires were in place from age 3.5months until 20 months of age.
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Post by Tom Meulman on Jan 23, 2014 16:50:25 GMT 10
Hi Jason I’m sorry mate but the news is not good.
The growth plate that will form the tibial crest on the upper part of the Tibia is usually the last one to close (bone matured), and unfortunately that is the exact spot where the tendon that comes across the kneecap from the quadriceps muscle group (thigh) is attached.
The fracture when it does occur happens when the stress and tension placed by the tendon from the quads is too much for the bone to handle and the lower section of the growth plate lifts away from the bone it is attached to.
In rare instances that area can also be damaged when a young pup runs into a yard kennel at speed and hits the bone just below the knee on the side of the doorway.
Either way it is absolutely essential that any repair carried out by whatever method results in having the growth plate sit back tight against the bone with no gap so that it can fully knit back to the bone, mature, and form part of the tibia. This also requires that the operation to repair this injury is carried out ASAP after the injury occurs, because bone surfaces seal very quickly, and this applies more so to growth plates, and if left too long the bits of bone will not knit cleanly together again.
Keep in mind that the various ridges (crests) seen on some bones exist primarily to provide a more solid attachment to the bone for tendons or muscle insertions. So as you can imagine having the section of bone that is supposed to provide a solid anchor point for the quadriceps muscles only partly attached to the bone surface below is going to be a constant source of pain for the greyhound, particularly when negotiating the turns on the track.
I have no doubt that for whatever reason the original surgical repair did not do the job properly, and no matter what is done at this point in time the problem is not going to be solved to the extend that the greyhound is going to be able to place full pressure on the limb without pain.
Unfortunately you may be limited with her to straight track racing as in that situation the left hind limb takes less rotation pressure, or she may have to be retired for breeding.
Cheers,
Tom
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Post by Jason on Jan 23, 2014 23:58:59 GMT 10
Thanks Tom - yes my suspicion too. She runs 17.60m/sec and above average trip speed up straights. Has only over done 16.79m/sec best on circle since the wires broke. She broke in at 17.39m/sec on the circle over 320m (modelled on Cranbourne track). I've booked her in nevertheless to have it xrayed again and see if anything can be done next Wednesday. A heartbreaker to see such a great spirited racebitch who has it together mentally just not be able to make the grade. I'll write back on the final outcome but if she is to be retired, she'll get to be a pet.
*note - the right forelimb has had swelling just below the elbow joint since the wires broke. She's extremely uncomfortable now on palpation of the tibia area whereas she was ok before this.
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Post by Tom Meulman on Jan 24, 2014 5:16:46 GMT 10
Hi Jason,
When a greyhound has a painful injury on one limb, and particularly if it involves bone damage, due to their galloping action they will place excessive pressure on the diagonally opposing limb.
Therefore damage to the right front leg is certainly highly likely in her situation and it sounds like the right front leg will also need careful examination and/or X rays.
Cheers,
Tom
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Jason (the other Jason)
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Post by Jason (the other Jason) on Feb 6, 2014 23:55:25 GMT 10
Since there's a new Jason appearing on the board I;m using this new handle to differentiate  Anyway Tom I'll report whether the surgey was worth it after she's had 2 trials. The surgery involved removing scar tissue from the area and the xrays taken now do not indicate bone damage nor any arthritic or degenerative changes. The prognosis I've been given is relatively promising for a full return to prior form. I'm only a week into it since her surgery but I can share that she's much happier in stride and walking (doesn't pull on an offset to the right as she did before, which was also consistent with running off the bend to the right). Probably nothing to report now until March, but rehab includes massaging the muscles against the grain for 15 minutes. Applying rapigel before massage to the area. (first 48 hours was cold pack not heat therapy). Very light treadmill work in mornings, real walks at evening and this weekend I'm taking her to some steps to go up and down on Sat-Sun and will do same next week one day on-one day off. |
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Post by Tom Meulman on Feb 7, 2014 4:51:57 GMT 10
Hi Jason,
That is great news!
Good on you for persevering and having had a reconstruction done on the tibial crest area, I certainly hope that this time everything heals strong enough for her to have a successful racing career.
Best regards,
Tom
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Jason (the other Jason)
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Post by Jason (the other Jason) on Mar 10, 2014 0:54:18 GMT 10
Just a quick update to say that the cranial tibia and surrounding scarring is gone. She is very happy in the area now and walks straighter, muscles all in place. I gave her a race last Wednesday but she pulled up sore (10 day injury suspension) with the right shoulder in particular. Extremely uncomfortable in right monkey and mid thoracic spine. I'll continue to let you and all reading this know how it goes no matter which way it ends up. Seems to me the good is that the primary problem seems to be resolved. Not sure if the extra force she got from using her back left leg into the first bend stuffed up her right shoulder but it certainly looked that way in watching the race replay. Tom, if you don't mind could you take a look at the replay and see how the #8 dog runs into the first bend and let me know if that's what I'm seeing?? Not questioning the nature of her injury, just wondering if it's conceivable that her left hind being corrected has actually put too much exertion on the right shoulder that she wasn't expecting? www.youtube.com/watch?v=naF-Z7B4E2sThe 6 and the 8 in that race are both mine. (proud of the 6 since she has a ruptured ECR and still races competitively) |
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Jason (the other Jason)
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Post by Jason (the other Jason) on Apr 15, 2014 23:43:48 GMT 10
Well I've tried with Lilly several times including trials after the corrective surgery but her race form and times haven't improved. She's trying heaps and as keen as mustard but continues to run wide giving up ground and would be a danger to herself and other dogs when racing if I were to persist. If anyone is interested in a lovely pet greyhound please visit my website I quickly knocked up for her. She is currently located in Adelaide. users.tpg.com.au/caleyj71/Cheers, JC |
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Post by Tom Meulman on Apr 16, 2014 7:15:47 GMT 10
So sorry to hear that mate .......... but at least you have given her every chance possible to make the race track.
Lets hope she goes to a loving home as greyhounds make the best pets of any dog breed.
Cheers,
Tom
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Post by Rob on Jan 28, 2016 14:44:34 GMT 10
Hi Tom I read your comment on how to treat a greyhound with a fracture using Blestre or 10% Iodine,My dog has a minor fracture of his toe and iv`e purchased 10% Iodine to treat him, Do I need to muzzle him after treatment to stop him licking it as I was told it will damage his throat, Also roughly how long will it take to heal well enough to start hand slipping up a straight track and then trialling?
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Post by Tom Meulman on Jan 28, 2016 18:55:32 GMT 10
Hi Rob,
Yes if you could muzzle him with a wire muzzle that has the front covered to stop him licking it would certainly be best.
In regard as to how long before it is fully healed, that unfortunately difficult to answer as it depends on the type of fracture and how close it is to a joint, or even if a joint is involved. However in most instances a minimum of four weeks is likely to be required before any real stress should be placed on the toe.
Keep in mind that certain toes when a greyhound drives around a bend have to be able to not only carry the dogs weight, the driving pressure it is exerting, but also the inertia created when negotiating a tight turn.
Also please take care when applying something like ten percent iodine to a toe that it does not pool in sensitive areas such as the webbing between the toes, and in some instances it may be best to place cotton wool between the the toes while applying the iodine, or at least until the application dries.
If you do have to apply it close to a sensitive area applying Vaseline to the sensitive area first can help protect it.
Cheers,
Tom
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