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Post by brodie on Feb 24, 2011 20:59:48 GMT 10
hi tom
Could i get your thoughts on the below test . Majortiy of test is ok just a little concerned with the following marked with *
pcv 60 w/c 4300 *red cell 10.6 *haemog 18.6 *mcv 57 plat 137 neut 2800 lymp 1100 mono 400 ratio n/l 2.8
thanks in advance
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Post by Tom Meulman on Feb 26, 2011 19:08:26 GMT 10
Hi brodie,
There are certainly some problems quite obvious from those limited test results.
On the surface a PCV of 60% looks good until you take into consideration a Red Cell Count of 10.6 when the maximum this should be in a healthy greyhound is 9.0, coupled with a MCV (which is a measurement of the size of the Red Blood Cells) of only 57 when it should really be around 70, and it shows a blood profile with an excessive amount of Red Blood Cells that are far too small to be able to fulfil their function as required.
At the same time the Haemoglobin level is only 18.6, when the preferred level is around 20.0 and this indicates a severe iron deficiency. It would have been interesting to see what the MCHC would have been as this measures the concentration of Haemoglobin within the Red Blood Cells, and I have no doubt that it would have been extremely low.
That part of the profile is certainly unusual as it indicates that something caused a rapid stimulation of Red Blood Cell production without the benefit of having sufficient iron, B12 and Folic Acid available in the diet for these Red Cells to develop to a healthy size with sufficient Haemoglobin to be able to function properly.
I must admit that I’m also somewhat puzzled by the White Blood Cell values. Keep in mind that the total number of White Blood Cells (in this case 4300 or 4.3) and that this number is made up by the various counts for Neutrophils, Lymphocytes, Monocytes, Eosinophils, and Basophils.
You list a Neutrophil count of 2800 or 2.8 when the minimum level should be around 3.0, a Lymphocyte count of 1100 or 1.1 when the maximum level of Lymphocytes to be in balance with the Neutrophil count of 2.8 should in fact be around 0.7 or 0.8.
This does indicate that the dog is trying to fight a bacterial infection at a time when its overall immunity is depressed, as Neutrophils are the first line of defence against a bacterial infection.
From the limited blood profile it would appear that the greyhound is low in Iron, B12, and Folic Acid and requires a course of injections, and has a bacterial infection requiring the appropriate antibiotics.
The difficulty with such a limited blood assessment is that it is difficult to ascertain exactly where the infection is, and this makes it difficult to target the antibiotics appropriately, and some of the problems indicated could also be caused by problems with other internal organs, such as liver or kidney function.
To fully get on top of the health problems this dog has it may be prudent to repeat the blood tests and include a full Biochemistry profile, this will give your Veterinarian a better picture of exactly what is happening in the dogs system, and will make it easier for him/her to provide advice for the appropriate treatment.
Cheers, Tom
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Post by paul on Mar 3, 2011 0:03:00 GMT 10
hi tom,can you give me your thoughts on the following blood tests i got done this morning;; RBC 7.8 X 10 ^12/L HCT 53.6% HGB 20.5 G/DL MCV 68.7FL MCH 26.3PG MCHC 38.2G/DL RDW 15.1% RETIC 15.1% WBC 5.47 X 10^9/L
MANY THANKS
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Post by Tom Meulman on Mar 3, 2011 6:33:18 GMT 10
Hi Paul,
In regard to interpreting a blood profile it should be kept in mind that the “Normal” range is set to cover a wide spectrum of greyhounds, from pups through to a brood bitch at various ages.
However when it comes to a racing greyhound, in other words an athlete that is required to perform at its peak, being “somewhere” within that “Normal” range is not necessarily good enough. In some instances depending on the substance in the test the “Preferred” level may be at the high end or the low end of the “Normal” range.
The other problem that exists for me when looking at a limited blood profile is that I have no idea if the greyhound whose profile I’m looking at is suffering any dehydration. The hydration state of the greyhound can have a considerable effect on its various values as found in the profile, simply because some of these values are for a giving quantity of a substance within a given quantity of blood plasma. Because fluid levels in the body maintain equilibrium throughout the body, a severely dehydrated greyhound will therefore have slightly thicker blood, and this means that the quantities found for some substances could be much lower if the greyhound was fully hydrated.
RBC 7.8 – within the normal range, however the preferred value is around 8.5 -9.0 and therefore the Red Blood Cells are too low and indicates moderate anaemia.
HCT 53.6% - below the normal range, the preferred Packed Cell Volume is around 60% and therefore indicates anaemia.
HGB 20.5 – at the upper end of the normal range and at the preferred level, and indicates that there is sufficient iron and other trace elements in the diet to maintain the appropriate level of Haemoglobin.
MCV 68.7 – this measures the size of the RBC’s and while within the normal range is a bit low and indicates the RBC’s are a fraction smaller than preferred.
MCH 26.3 – this measures the quantity of Haemoglobin within the RBC’s and is above the normal range. This is of course due to the low level of RBC’s and the normal level of Haemoglobin.
MCHC 38.2 – this measures the concentration of Haemoglobin within the RBC’s and is well above the normal range, again reflecting the low level of RBC’s and their smaller than preferred size.
RDW 15.1% - this measures the deviation in the volume curve of the RBC’s and this value is far too high, and indicates a wide variation in mature and immature Red Blood Cells.
RETIC 15.1% - this is a measure of the quantity of new Blood Cells being produced and is far too high for a Normal blood profile.
The fact that the bone marrow is capable of rapidly producing new Red Blood Cells in an effort to try and overcome the existing anaemia indicates that the basic health of the greyhound is still OK. However the fact that other levels show that the greyhound is suffering anaemia indicates to me that somehow the greyhound is rapidly loosing Red Blood Cells while the body is doing its best to overcome this occurrence, and trying to maintain its athletic ability by increasing the amount of Haemoglobin in each Red Blood Cell even though these are too small.
I would have to rule out internal bleeding as the cause of this, as this would have shown in the health of the greyhound in other ways. I can therefore only conclude that the greyhound is suffering an unusual high infestation of blood sucking intestinal worms such as hookworm.
WBC 5.47 – While a fraction high this level is still OK under the circumstances, and there does not appear to be a contributing infection.
Cheers, Tom
PS. As soon as I get a chance I will post some additional infomation about Hookworms and why these can be so damn difficult to get rid off even though the greyhound is being wormed on a regular basis.
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Post by paul on Mar 3, 2011 9:12:25 GMT 10
hi tom,
I'm very surprised at what you concluded about my test results..but interesting..I have used drontal some weeks back is there a stronger wormer to get rid of these nuisance..worms..
many thanks for your post...everything seems ok apart from the worms you say... paul
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Post by Tom Meulman on Mar 3, 2011 15:15:37 GMT 10
Hi Paul,
The dog is loosing a lot of red blood cells for some reason; my guess was blood sucking worms.
Because of this the dog is still clinically anaemic, and has a large number (15.1%) of immature red blood cells that need time to mature (this takes about 21 days) before the dog can perform up to its best.
In the mean time it is essential that whatever is causing the loss of red blood cells is fixed, and that the workload is reduced for a couple of weeks.
Because the dog has a sufficient amount of Haemoglobin in its blood, and the bone marrow is still producing new blood cells, there is no need to treat the anaemia with iron, folic acid, or B12 injections.
In regard to an efficient wormer, most wormers appear to do the job OK; it is just that most blood sucking worms can be difficult to get rid of completely.
The problem is in the life cycle of these worms.
For a starter when a dog is infested with a blood sucking parasite such as hookworm, if for instance, the larva produced by the mature worms just kept maturing and then also started ingesting blood, sooner or later the host would die.
It’s not a good way for a parasite to behave, such as killing your host and thereby killing yourself as well.
The natural mechanism in place to avoid that happening is that in their excreta the worms produce an enzyme that when it gets to a certain concentration in the gut, the larva stop maturing, and the level of worm infestation stays static.
Now you worm the dog, and unfortunately this only kills the mature worms, next thing the enzyme is no longer being produced, and within 14 days the next batch of larva have matured and the infestation is back where it started before the dog was wormed.
One of the answers is to worm the dog every 14 days for three doses and then once a month for at least another three doses.
The need for the additional worming is because as part of their life cycle, some of the blood sucking worms mature in the blood stream. Then as they reach a certain size they migrate to the lungs and because of the irritation so produced are coughed up and swallowed back into the gut, and the whole thing starts all over again.
The fact that both hook and roundworms spend some of their life cycle in the blood stream is the main reason that newly born pups need to be wormed regularly, as far too often they are born with a worm load due to the mum having immature worms in her blood and these infest the pups while suckling the bitch.
Cheers, Tom
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Post by paul on Mar 4, 2011 6:21:50 GMT 10
hi tom,
having looked through my blood test results...how do i get the rbc up..i have given 3mls of folic acid b12 into muscle and will get to the source of these worms..my place is spotless and dogs wormed regularly i can't understand how this hookworms got into my dog..what wormer do you think is the best...
many thanks paul
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Post by Tom Meulman on Mar 4, 2011 6:43:36 GMT 10
Reprint from THE JOURNAL (JUNE 1999) IVOMEC – THE FACTS by GRAHAM BEH How does a perfectly good idea like using Ivomec as a monthly heartworm preventative and treatment for hookworm, roundworm and whipworm get corrupted to the stage where trainers don’t know how to use it, how much to use, or what form to use?
It happens because some people spread a lot of misinformation about the drug and members of the greyhound fraternity believe it. Some people will believe anything.
We have prescribed Ivomec, used Ivomec, and performed blood tests on greyhounds receiving Ivomec for the past 12 years and have access to research data on it.
The facts are: • Ivomec at a dose of 200 mcg per kg bodyweight is the most effective wormer on the market against hookworm, roundworm and whipworm. • Ivomec given once a month will prevent heartworm in your greyhound. • Ivomec is the cheapest wormer/ heartworm preventative on the market • Ivomec can be used in pups from 8 weeks of age. • Ivomec does not damage the liver or kidneys at recommended dosages at monthly intervals. • Ivomec given at a reduced dosage is more likely to cause parasite resistance over a period of time than when given at the recommended dosage. • If you are using Ivomec and you stop using it, you will have to give some other form of heartworm preventative or your greyhound may get heartworm. • Ivomec does not treat tapeworm (use Droncit 1 tablet per 10 kg body weight) • Ivomec does come in different strengths and this will vary the amount given. • Ivomec has a shelf life of 2 years from date of manufacture and should be stored in a cool spot and out of the light (a cupboard) • We recommend that trainers use the oral liquid Ivomec (0.8 gm/litre) monthly at the dose rate of 1 ml per 4 kg body weight and use it every month at that rate.
• Use Droncit every 3 months against tapeworm. • DON’T vary the dose of Ivomec • DON’T use any other wormers at the same time (you do not need them) • DON’T give it to long coated collies, Shelties or Border Collies • DON’T listen to “crap” about Ivomec unless people can show you some scientific evidence to support their claims.
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Post by paul on Mar 5, 2011 8:08:41 GMT 10
hi tom,
may i ask you how many injections of b12 folic acid would it take to rise a dogs rbs 2%,...many thanks tom for great advice..
paul
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Post by Tom Meulman on Mar 5, 2011 8:32:44 GMT 10
Hi Paul,
Mate that is an extremely difficult question to answer accurately as the production of Red Blood Cells depends on so many other factors, such as the type of protein in the diet, and the availability of other trace elements, as well as the workload at that time.
Red Blood Cells are mainly produced in the bone marrow of the long bones, and as you can imagine that if the dog is galloped hard everyday the resulting inflammation in these bones can reduce the production of Red Blood Cells.
Then it takes approximately 21 days for a Red Blood Cell to mature once it has been produced before it can fully fulfil its required functions.
So to put an arbitrary length of time on the result of stimulating Red Blood Cell production is virtually impossible.
However, from past experience I have had good results such as a 2 to 3% increase in RBC’s 14 days after injecting 1ml of iron, 2ml of Folic Acid + B12, and 2ml of B complex every third day for three doses.
Cheers, Tom
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Post by paul on Mar 6, 2011 0:31:00 GMT 10
Hi tom...
I given my dog 4mls over 3 days to my dog..hopefully this will stimulate to produce red cells and get the levels us to around 9%...i have also gave him some panucur 10 for 3 days...in 2 weeks time will i repeat it just to be sure or will I give ivormec..i want these bloody worms out and out quick...I am washing out the kennels twice a day and drying the floor and using a good detergent..I have all my floors tiled white non slip and they are spotless...I just can't understand how they got into my dog...only thing i can think of is i let them rest out in a paddock once a week just like a day off for them to freshen up etc..and they might have picked them up...I have limed the whole paddock and will rest it for 4 weeks....What made me get the blood test done was I thought there was a injury to the dog but i got him checked out by 2 vets and they said hes 100% no injuries...he was doing 21.50 in trials for a 400yard race and when i prepared him for a race say 3 weeks later he went a way back to 22.10...and kept going backwards...i got the blood test done and this is the stage i am at now...and thanks to you tom and your expert advice..i now know that it has to be worms...his performance has dropped a way back because of this and turned into an anemia...will my dog return to his old time of around 21.50 when i correct this Tom?...
many thanks for your expert advice tom.
paul
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Post by Tom Meulman on Mar 6, 2011 7:42:43 GMT 10
Hi Paul, I have no doubt that when the anaemia has been corrected and the blood is back to normal the dogs performances will get back to what they were before. Best of luck Cheers, Tom
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Post by paul on Mar 9, 2011 4:16:45 GMT 10
Hi tom, How are you keeping,i have wormed out my dog with panacur 10 don't want to sound vulgar but I couldn't see any worms in his poo which i thought i would although i did see white things around 1" inches in the poo would this be the hookworm or is it just fat in the meat just passing through...the dog seems in far better form...this is the second day of worming and will give him another 6 ml in the morning just to get shot of them all...correct me if i'm wrong but when you give panacur first does the worms go and hide and when they get get the 2nd shot it kills them and then the 3rd shot gets them out of the dogs stomach...i'm i right or should you see the results after the 1st dose...the dog weighs 35kg..i was giving 6mls..about an hour before feeding... many thanks tom paul..
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Post by Tom Meulman on Mar 9, 2011 4:28:53 GMT 10
Hi Paul,
You don’t necessarily see worms in their droppings after a wormer kills them, except with roundworms in some instances, or if the dog was infested with a large amount of tape worm it may show as a quantity of gel like material, simply because worms are protein and in most instances are dissolved in the digestive system the same as any other form of protein.
Unless the dog had severe problems with its liver or digestive system, there is no chance of seeing any fat in the diet being passed out still as fat in the droppings, so as far as seeing white fatty substances in the droppings it would more than likely be whatever is left over from the worms, and there is honestly no such thing as the worms hiding, the wormer either kills them or it doesn’t.
Cheers, Tom
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Post by Joe on Mar 10, 2011 14:09:24 GMT 10
Tom, Gannon always recommended using Panacur 100 at a dose rate of 1ml per 2kg for 3 consecutive days i.e. 30kg dog = 15ml for 3 days....so if Paul is giving only 6 ml all he's doing is making the worms sick not killing them, in fact he's wasting the Panacur and his time!!!
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Post by Tom Meulman on Mar 10, 2011 16:18:46 GMT 10
Hi Joe, It has been a long time since I used Panacur as a worming agent, and I’m honestly under the impression that it’s only the Panacur 10 that was used for worming dogs, and that the Panacur 100 was mainly used in cattle and horses. As far as the dose rate for the Panacur 10 is concerned there are two methods of using it. One as a single dose only at a dose rate of 1 ml per kg, however this method did often cause a stomach upset and vomiting. To overcome this unfortunate side effect, the recommendations then were to give 1 ml per 2 kg of body weight for three days as you have stated. And you are right if Panacur 10 is being used, the daily dose for a 35 kg dog should be at least be 15 ml not 6 ml. However I still do think it best if the Panacur is mixed with the main meal, or given after the meal and not on an empty stomach. I can only hope that Paul has another look in at this string, waits 10 to 14 days, and repeats the worming process at the correct dose rate. Thanks Joe excellent pickup as I missed that dose rate. Cheers, Tom
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Post by paul on Mar 10, 2011 18:02:13 GMT 10
hi tom and joe,
your right,having read about panacur 10 I have re-dosed my dog with 15ml as you are correct when you say that 6ml is not a strong enough solution...having said that I can see a huge differance in form with the dog..but i will continue for 3 days at 15ml to get shot of the worms...many thanks for advice lads...really very good of you's
Paul
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Post by Joe on Mar 10, 2011 22:38:31 GMT 10
Hi Joe, It has been a long time since I used Panacur as a worming agent, and I’m honestly under the impression that it’s only the Panacur 10 that was used for worming dogs, and that the Panacur 100 was mainly used in cattle and horses. As far as the dose rate for the Panacur 10 is concerned there are two methods of using it. One as a single dose only at a dose rate of 1 ml per kg, however this method did often cause a stomach upset and vomiting. To overcome this unfortunate side effect, the recommendations then were to give 1 ml per 2 kg of body weight for three days as you have stated. And you are right if Panacur 10 is being used, the daily dose for a 35 kg dog should be at least be 15 ml not 6 ml. However I still do think it best if the Panacur is mixed with the main meal, or given after the meal and not on an empty stomach. I can only hope that Paul has another look in at this string, waits 10 to 14 days, and repeats the worming process at the correct dose rate. Thanks Joe excellent pickup as I missed that dose rate. Cheers, Tom Tom, probably 5 or so years ago the Panacur 10% and Panacur 2.5% were "rebadged" by the company as Panacur 100 and Panacur 25, same product, same dose rates, different label. Panacur 10% contained 100mg/Litre Fenbendazole the same as the "rebadged" Panacur 100.
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Post by paul on Mar 11, 2011 3:56:18 GMT 10
hi tom/joe,
Do you think panacur 10 is a good wormer or is ivomec the best on the market..heard a good few people saying that its the best....whats your views many thanks Paul
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Post by Tom Meulman on Mar 11, 2011 5:10:03 GMT 10
Hi Joe,
Thanks mate for that information, again I was not aware this had occurred as it is at least 20 years since I personally had used Panacur as a wormer. I swapped over to using Ivomec mainly because it could be used as a single dose every month as this interfered less with the work schedule of the dogs and provided protection against heart worm.
Hi Paul,
As you can see from the above I personally prefer Ivomec.
That is not to say that Panacur is not an effective wormer, as a lot of trainers are still using it and it appears to do the job.
In your case it is best to double check the strength of the Panacur you have got and adjust the dose rate to suit.
Once you have completed the current worm-out of your greyhound, I still think its best if you could then wait 14 days and re-do the worming using Ivomec the next time, and then worm the dog every month with Ivomec for at least the following three months to ensure the dog is completely free of hookworms.
Cheers, Tom
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