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Post by Caolan on Oct 6, 2010 4:02:56 GMT 10
Hi Tom, i just found your site after searching a few different things online regarding injuries. its great you take the time to put this information out there.
I run a lurcher hunting but hes very much like a big Irish coursing greyhound. The dog is fast in a straight line but has real problems turning. He has to slow down almost to a stop to get turned. When i lift either of his front legs straight up (elbow up towards spine) he has alot of pain. Ive took him to a bone man and he said there were no bones out of place, i also took him to the local vet last week were he said the same. I think the problem must be in the muscles as the vet give him an anti inflammatory injection and pain killers and the next 2 days he was turning better than i have ever seen him. I don't like this but as i believe painkillers are just hiding the problem. After hunting on Sunday he is really sore again.
I know it might be hard to diagnose from this description but would you have any idea what the problem could be and any possible treatment. I believe it may be common in Greyhounds but im fairly new to the dog world so im not 100% sure.
Thanks in advance Caolan.
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Post by Tom Meulman on Oct 8, 2010 6:50:16 GMT 10
Hi Caolan,
When a dog has to turn it can only do so by pivoting on a leg that normally carries the bulk of the body weight.
Now if you stood a greyhound or a dog with a simular body structure as a greyhound, with the front legs on one set of scales and with the hind legs on another set of scales, you would find that two thirds of the dogs weight will be on the scales holding the front legs.
That means that the dog can only make a turn when one of the front legs is on the ground. So in effect that means that if a dog has problems running a turn, the problem has to be on one or both front legs, or the area where the front legs are connected to the body.
With a greyhound that usually means some sort of injury to the wrists, the muscles of the forearm, extreme muscle spasms to the base of the neck or damage to the saddle muscles where they join the top of the shoulder blades.
In your case due to the fact that the dog exhibits pain when the front legs are rotated upwards, it is highly likely that there are muscle spasms to the base of the neck or damage to the saddle muscles where they join the top of the shoulder blades.
To relieve this I would recommend hot towels or a hot pack placed at the base of the neck and across the saddle area for five minutes twice daily, followed by deep massage to the base of the neck and saddle area.
The type of massage best suited for this would be if you placed your palm flat on the saddle area with your thumb hard to one side of the upper spine, and then curl the fingers over so that they contact the saddle muscle on the other side of the spine, and then by rubbing firmly backwards and forwards massage one side of the upper spine. Then by swapping hands you do the other side of the spine. This also allows you to massage right up into the base of the neck with your thumb. There is no need to try and slide your hands across the skin as this massage movement is best done by taking the skin with you as you massage backwards and forwards.
About 20 good solid rubs on each side twice daily for a week should helps loosen the muscles in this area, with possibly an other massage of 20 rubs each side of the spine after the dogs next two hunting trips.
Cheers, Tom
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Post by Gloria on Sept 5, 2014 12:59:41 GMT 10
Hi! I'm hoping you might be able to lend some knowledgeable advice. I recently adopted an 8 year female grey that raced for 2 years then was bred to have 4 litters of pups. Her foster mom said she never experienced any of the problems that I am seeing this grey experience.
Once she is lying down, anytime she tries to raise herself or move, she cries out in pain. I cannot determine the source of her pain. The vet has put her on anti-inflammatory and pain meds as well as Trammadol to help but I only see this as masking her pain and not finding a solution. I notice that up on the neck area behind the ears, she seems to have a bulging area that extends further out than the left side of the neck does around the bone. Have you had any experience with any similar issues in greyhounds and what were some diagnostics/solutions?
Thank you! Gloria
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Post by Tom Meulman on Sept 5, 2014 19:39:18 GMT 10
Hi Gloria,
This is certainly a difficult one to try and diagnose without being able to examine the greyhound.
Firstly when a greyhound cries out in pain when trying to regain its feet it is highly likely that there is some involvement of the spine and therefor nerve pain, as most greyhounds are extremely stoic, and while the pain generally only occurs during movement, it certainly is severe.
To try and ascertain if the pain is being caused in the front half of the spine or in the lower section of the spine you will have to note as to during what movement the pain first occurs.
Keep in mind that the greyhound is going to lift its head first, pain at that point will involve problems in the neck, it will then try and get on the front feet, and if the pain appears during that movement you will know that the problem involves the upper spine and possibly one of the shoulders. The same applies if the pain occurs after the greyhound has partially gained its front feet and is trying to get on its hind legs.
If you are able to at least locate the origin of the pain you can then treat that area with a hot pack or hot towel three times daily and see if this helps to alleviate the worst of the pain. In addition this will also provide additional information for your veterinarian and assist him/her in isolating the exact cause.
In regard to the an area in the upper neck that appears enlarged, this is certainly of some concern as it could indicate either damage to the neck muscle tissue just below that area and some withering of the muscle tissue in that section making the area just above it appear enlarged, or of course damage of some sort in that part of the neck and the resultant inflammation causing swelling.
Unfortunately because I'm unable to examine the greyhound I'm severely limited in any advice I can provide to assist in alleviating the pain the poor girl is experiencing. In reality it is your vets job to accurately diagnose the cause, and provide the appropriate treatment.
Cheers, Tom
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Post by Gloria on Sept 6, 2014 1:41:32 GMT 10
Hi Tom!
Thank you for your quick reply. The odd thing is that once she is up and moving around, she stretches out (head down, butt in the air kind of stretch), extends herself, and walks fine so this is only occurring while she is lying down. I struggle with it being the spine because wouldn't this affect her overall while walking, stretching, etc?
As I watched her sleep last night, I noticed that she seems to cry more when sleeping stretched out completely on her right side. She cries as she lifts her neck up through a sitting position then stops crying. She seems fine and does not cry out when she is laying down on her stomach or her head laying on her paws. It's just when she gets up from a flat laying position. She is shaky on her two front legs while trying to stand but does not cry out as she tries to stand and then she seems fine once standing.
I've explained this to the vet and the vet has physically checked her and decided the meds was best for now. The vet is considering sending her to a neurologist if she doesn't get better but has not done x-rays yet so I'm hesitant. I may just need to find another vet for a second opinion. :-(
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Post by Tom Meulman on Sept 7, 2014 6:57:05 GMT 10
Hi Gloria,
I get so used to thinking of the whole area from the back of the skull to the base of the tail as "the spine" and forget that most people think of the spine basically as the back of the dog.
The nerves that exit via the two lower neck segments and the two upper spine segments, and particularly where the neck joins the upper spine, control much of the muscular movement of the front legs. Dogs get shaky on the front legs when spasms in this area impact on nerve function and a spasm in the base of the neck where it joins the upper spine can cause severe pain and impact upon the Radial nerve.
If the pain first appears when lifting the head and trying to gain the front feet, try some gentle massage at the very base of the neck and both sides of the upper spine. Basically the area between the tops of the shoulder blades, and place a hot pack so that it covers that whole area including the base of the neck.
I'm reasonably confident you will see a marked improvement in her condition over the space of a week to ten days with of this type of treatment two or three times daily.
Cheers, Tom
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Post by Kayzer11 on Oct 1, 2014 20:19:09 GMT 10
How do would u prefer to put a greyhounds back in tom up the front end of the dog another trainer I no uses a sudden jolt under the front half of the dog it takes the pain outta the monkeys and shoulder blades but its not always effective.
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Post by Tom Meulman on Oct 1, 2014 21:16:53 GMT 10
Hi Kayzer11' I'm sorry mate but I have real problems with those types of manipulation techniques, because as you have noted it is not only not always effective, but more to the point does nothing to fix the injury other than very short term relief and causes the dog unnecessary pain in the process. The other important fact to keep in mind is that a "back" or spine on a dog does not "go out" and if it did the dog would be paralyzed. So anyone that tells you they have put the dogs "back" back in is using some very poor terminology to explain what they have attempted to do. Unlike humans who walk on their hind limbs, carry heavy weights, and do other stupid things that cause severe spinal compression and in the process cause spinal disk damage with the associated long term problems, dogs suffer mostly from muscle damage and muscle spasms of the muscle tissue that is connected to the spine. A spinal joint while it has limited movement as compared to other joints in the body is still a joint, and as such has tissue that not only holds the joint stable but also tissue that controls the movement in that joint. Imagine then when that tissue surrounding a specific spinal joint goes into spasm as a result of race or trial incidents, and in the process pulls the joint fractionally out of alignment, as in humans of course this causes pain, and if severe enough can interfere to some extent with any nerves that exit that spinal joint. Now someone comes along and without doing anything else forcibly rotates the joint through a range of motion in an attempt to free the joint up, or as some describe it "put the back back in". Unfortunately if this is done without first warming the area up, and doing a considerable amount of deep massage to first release the worst of the muscle spasm, the so called manipulation can and often does cause further damage to the tissue that has gone into spasm, and in a worse case scenario could tear some of that tissue surrounding the joint because it is so tight and no longer elastic. Not to mention the pain such a procedure caused the poor dog. Very much the same thing can occur by suddenly jolting the upper spinal area in an attempt to release spinal muscle spasms in the base of the neck and upper spine. The only way to provide long term relief is to use hot packs over that area of the spine, and then thoroughly massage the area before doing some gentle rotating stretches to the neck and upper spine. In many instances the muscle spasms have been there for a considerable length of time and therefore can take repeated treatments over a period of a couple of weeks for the problem to be solved. So many of the muscle injuries and the spinal problems that occur to racing greyhounds would not happen at all, and in most instances the greyhounds performances would improve considerable, if only the trainers took the time to thoroughly massage their greyhounds after each physical workout as was done in years gone by. Just look at what the football club trainers do for their players after each game or training session. Cheers, Tom P.S. For further information on this subject see: Spinal Adjustments
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Post by Kayzer11 on Oct 2, 2014 18:41:07 GMT 10
Hey tom thanks very much for the usefull info mate it's really handy to no things cause obviously there is all different opinions so I thought I'd ask a professional and I'll take your advice. Thanks very much.
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Post by BILL on Nov 23, 2017 9:37:08 GMT 10
Hi Tom I have a problem with my greyhound and I was hoping you could help me . when I straddle the dog I put my left arm around the front chest of the dog and slightly elevate the dog off the ground and then with my right hand I place it on the dogs right elbow and stretch it forward so the whole right leg is stretched forward the dog has no pain however when I repeat the same movement and also stretch the leg outwards to the right the dog starts to yelp.can you tell me what the problem may be and how to fix this injury thank you,
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Post by Tom Meulman on Nov 24, 2017 4:46:09 GMT 10
Hi Tom I have a problem with my greyhound and I was hoping you could help me . when I straddle the dog I put my left arm around the front chest of the dog and slightly elevate the dog off the ground and then with my right hand I place it on the dogs right elbow and stretch it forward so the whole right leg is stretched forward the dog has no pain however when I repeat the same movement and also stretch the leg outwards to the right the dog starts to yelp.can you tell me what the problem may be and how to fix this injury thank you, Hi Bill, That is not a natural movement as it strains the ligaments between the head of the humerus and the shoulder blade, and if this movement causes pain then there is obviously some existing damage to that joint structure. Careful examination of the stability of that joint structure is indicated and if necessary treatment with heat producing liniments and sufficient time off to allow healing of the damage. Time off will depend upon the extent of the damage and could be as long as four weeks. Cheers, Tom
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Post by ray on Jun 25, 2018 19:17:01 GMT 10
hi tom is their any chance of you making a home video of spinal manipulation techniques so us small hobby trainers can learn these techniques and upload the video on this website because once you go tom knock on wood us hobby trainers will never learn how to manipulate the spine and I don't think their is any one out their to teach us the correct techniques. thanks
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Post by Tom Meulman on Jun 26, 2018 5:18:44 GMT 10
hi tom is their any chance of you making a home video of spinal manipulation techniques so us small hobby trainers can learn these techniques and upload the video on this website because once you go tom knock on wood us hobby trainers will never learn how to manipulate the spine and I don't think their is any one out their to teach us the correct techniques. thanks Hi Ray, I’m sorry mate but that is not going to happen. There are a number of reasons for this and the main one being that any manipulation, even using the “right” technique done for the wrong reason can not only cause the dog unnecessary pain, but can also cause further spinal problems. The first thing that is required prior to any manipulation is the correct diagnosis of whatever the problem is, and that is where the difficulty is. You simply cannot say, “if it hurts here, crunch this bit”, and this is how you do this, and that will fix it. This diagnosis requires first of all an intimate understanding of the muscle, ligament and bone structure, and by intimate I mean getting to the stage where you touch a particular section of the dogs muscle tissue or bone structure and to then not only to be able to clearly visualise this structure in the minds eye, but to also know what it should feel like in regard to muscle texture, density, and feel of ”healthy” muscle fibers. But also what the surface of the bone should feel like when it’s sound with no inflammation or damage such as periostitis. None of that is going to be possible without first of all being very sensitive in your fingertips, a lot of studying of the structure of the greyhound, and a lot of practice running your fingers over a large number of greyhounds. Unfortunately very few people have the required sensitivity in their finger tips, and fewer still are prepared to undertake the study required, including whatever length of time required to be able to confidently diagnose the structural problems that are affecting the greyhound. Believe you me over the years I have tried to teach various individuals how to check a greyhound for injuries with very limited success, as most were only interested in learning what to manipulate if there was pain in a certain area of the body without being able to correctly diagnose why that pain was there in the first place, and what type of pain it was. All and all a very frustrating exercise to go through, and as a result of those experiences over a lot of years I see no sense in doing any videos on spinal adjustments, as I know that in far too many instances it’s going to result in various individuals trying manipulating greyhounds without valid or correct reasons, and most importantly without the correct preparation, and in the process causing lots of greyhounds discomfort, pain, or even aggravating existing injuries. Cheers, Tom
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Post by ray on Jun 26, 2018 18:53:40 GMT 10
I understand what you are saying however im trying to follow step by step your written description under the heading spinal adjustments and it is to difficult to understand that's why I was hoping you could do a video even on your phone to explain in picture rather than writing on spinal adjustments.
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Post by tom on Jun 26, 2018 19:03:25 GMT 10
hi tom can you please help me when I stretch my dogs right back leg towards the back with my right hand and holding the left hip down with my left hand for around 10 second when I let the right leg go it does not bounce to the ground the dog holds his leg up for a couple of second before he slowly places his foot back on the ground he does the same with the other side but not as bad can you please diagnose the problem and what therapy can I do to solve this problem.thank you.
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Post by Tom Meulman on Jun 27, 2018 5:39:08 GMT 10
hi tom can you please help me when I stretch my dogs right back leg towards the back with my right hand and holding the left hip down with my left hand for around 10 second when I let the right leg go it does not bounce to the ground the dog holds his leg up for a couple of second before he slowly places his foot back on the ground he does the same with the other side but not as bad can you please diagnose the problem and what therapy can I do to solve this problem.thank you. Hi Tom, I’m sorry mate but It’s simply not possible to diagnose such occurance without carefully examining the Greyhound as there are far too many possible causes. Such as varying degrees of damage to the muscle tissue at the front/top of the limb, damage in the groin, damage in the hip muscle, scar tissue/adhesions from old injuries, and then of course a severe muscle spasm in the lower back. If it’s not possible for the greyhound to be examined by a knowledgeable person specializing in greyhound racing injuries, the best thing to do is heat packs to the lower spine for 10 minutes twice daily with a warmth producing liniment applied after each treatment. As well as firm massage with an oil based liniment or preferably massage with a mechanical massager for twenty five strokes to the whole of the muscle group at the front section of the top of the limb including the hip muscles, and then an application of warmth producing liniment if none was used during the massage treatment. If the weather is at all cool rug the dog for at least two hours after each treatment. Four days of treatments before you could expect any positive results. Cheers, Tom
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Post by Tom Meulman on Jun 27, 2018 6:29:08 GMT 10
I understand what you are saying however im trying to follow step by step your written description under the heading spinal adjustments and it is to difficult to understand that's why I was hoping you could do a video even on your phone to explain in picture rather than writing on spinal adjustments. What I have written in that particular post on Spinal Adjustments is just a very basic description of some spinal adjustment techniques and it was never intended to be a complete guide on spinal adjustments. It was intended for those who had reached a certain level of competence in the understanding of the physical structure of the racing greyhound to give them an alternative point of view on spinal adjustments, and to possibly give them some guidance towards solving some injury issues not possible with conventional chiropractic techniques. In other words for those who had some previous experience in spinal adjustments, and to whom what I have written would make sense. A video would allow anyone without the essential prior knowledge to jump right in and start trying spinal manipulation, which is something I do not want to occur for reasons I have touched on in my previous post on this subject. Cheers, Tom
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Post by bill on Jan 18, 2019 20:52:30 GMT 10
Hi Tom can you please help when I deep message the thoracic lumber and sacral area the dog lift his right leg up and keeps it their what do you think the injury is and what would I need to do to fix it. Also when I lift the right leg up by gently bending the wrist if I gently palpitate the wrist up against the shoulder the dog will yelp can suggest what the problem could be and how to fix it.
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Post by Tom Meulman on Jan 18, 2019 21:39:22 GMT 10
Hi Tom can you please help when I deep message the thoracic lumber and sacral area the dog lift his right leg up and keeps it their what do you think the injury is and what would I need to do to fix it. Also when I lift the right leg up by gently bending the wrist if I gently palpitate the wrist up against the shoulder the dog will yelp can suggest what the problem could be and how to fix it. I’m sorry Bill, there are far too many likely issues involved and it’s impossible for me to guess what the specific problem would be, and it would require a careful examination of the greyhound to pinpoint the problem or problems. Having said that either a muscle spasm in the area, and or some muscle strain or low level muscle damage should all respond to heat pack or hot towel treatments twice daily for thee or four days, combined with some very gentle massage at the lower neck and both sides of the spine in the saddle area. Cheers, Tom
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Post by steve on Aug 19, 2019 1:38:05 GMT 10
tom when I massage my dogs back with my thumb next to the pin bone he squats down what would be the cause of this and how do I fix the injury
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