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meat
Jan 11, 2015 11:10:02 GMT 10
Post by dj on Jan 11, 2015 11:10:02 GMT 10
Hi Tom. here in ireland i hear so much about feeding red meat. bascially the dogs cant handle it etc etc and feeding a pound every day would give alot of problems. even charlie lister i understand in the uk boils some of the meat for his dogs. how is it that you guys can give plenty meat without problems. even your pups are given large amounts during rearing, im totally in favour of meat for no other reason than thats what the dog would eat in the wild but why does it cause problems here etc. the only conclusion i can come to is that ye feed meat from day one and their used to it whereas maybe here rearing has alot of kibble/nuts/ i know of one fast dog here that had problems/rash/poor performance etc and once they removed the red meat he started performing again=
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meat
Jan 11, 2015 18:27:05 GMT 10
Post by Tom Meulman on Jan 11, 2015 18:27:05 GMT 10
Hi dj,
Mate I know feeding a racing greyhound can be a real dilemma when food can have such a huge effect both on the greyhound's performance, and their ongoing health.
While it may appear that Australian greyhound trainers feed huge amounts of meat without any dramas, the truth is that there are plenty of problems encountered by those doing so.
Firstly, one of our most prolific winning trainers feeds a lot of meat however it is a mixture of fatty ox cheek and chicken, and because this is so high in protein, it is then balanced by a large proportion of wholemeal bread.
So by adjusting the amounts of these three main ingredients, and adding water or milk and the appropriate additives as may be required it is still a meal that contains the right balance of protein, fats, and carbohydrates.
Those trainers that go out and pay big dollars for lean beef and then add this to a dry food such as science diet have a lot of problems with their dogs health because that type of diet is just far too high in protein, and while they can get away with that with young dogs, or with older dogs for a short period of time, sooner or later they have major problems trying to get the dogs blood right, as well as trying to fix kidney and liver problems.
For the forty years that I did train greyhounds I fed beef that had a minimum of ten percent fat, balanced with baked and crushed low protein wheat biscuit that was allowed to soak for a minimum of one hour before it was thoroughly mixed with the meat and whatever else went into the mix to suit the various greyhounds in training.
All I can say is that I personally do not like a so called complete balanced dry food, mainly because I happen to believe that as the trainer right there on the job who is able to see on a daily basis just how the food was affecting the dogs, that I was in a better position to know what my greyhounds needed as individuals, and therefore better able to formulate the right balance between the various components that make up the greyhounds racing diet.
But then there are a lot of greyhounds winning races on a complete dry food diet without any complications.
In regard to rearing pups their diet generally consists of fatty meat, chicken, and soaked bread. In other words a diet that is fairly high in fat and carbohydrates, and far too often when these pups are put into work and on a so called high protein racing diet that they soon start to suffer from health problems, and increased muscle soreness and damage.
Cheers, Tom
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meat
Jan 12, 2015 7:29:41 GMT 10
via mobile
Post by Dj on Jan 12, 2015 7:29:41 GMT 10
Thanks Tom great reading
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meat
Jan 16, 2015 20:55:46 GMT 10
Post by Luddy on Jan 16, 2015 20:55:46 GMT 10
In regard to rearing pups their diet generally consists of fatty meat, chicken, and soaked bread. In other words a diet that is fairly high in fat and carbohydrates, and far too often when these pups are put into work and on a so called high protein racing diet that they soon start to suffer from health problems, and increased muscle soreness and damage. Cheers, Tom Thanks for your personal "Over Look" on the "Meat" diets of a greyhound Tom. I personally fed my pups (I ran my own pet food shop as you may remember) on a 50/50 mix of - chick (no skins just frames) & beef (10% fat)...The mix would resemble no higher then 15% fat. I've been using the Aussie brand kibble "Blackhawk Puppy" for the last 15 months & can't fault the results....Their coats are just amazing to say the least. At around around 8/9 months of age....I change to 90% straight beef mixed with 10% fat & Adult Blackhawk Chick & Rice. At this stage they are receiving 500/600 grams of meat plus 120/140 grams of kibble. They always get Calci-D every night plus a cup & a half of hot water. What do you personally think of the meal....& what changes or additives would you recommend? Also....this diet would help with the problems you've rise in the above "Quote"? & one last question Tom.....How offend would you THEN get a blood test done on a greyhound if (s)he had average to above ability? Thanks Tom & happy new year mate............Steve.
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meat
Jan 17, 2015 6:09:27 GMT 10
Post by Tom Meulman on Jan 17, 2015 6:09:27 GMT 10
Hi Steve,
The diet you have listed for your pups is great, and because it has such a good balance of fat and protein, plus it is mixed with a dry food which has a very good formula in regard to vitamins, minerals and trace elements, and most important protein, it is very hard to fault.
Nor can I see any problems developing with pups on that diet going into race training and racing.
If you did wish to add anything to that diet a very small quantity of full cream milk powder on a daily basis, and a soft boiled egg a couple of times a week could be beneficial in supplying an additional couple of types of protein to the mix that are useful in maintaining a healthy immune system.
As I have mentioned in previous posts problems do occur when pups that are reared on fatty beef, chicken, and bread, with at that point in time their body being conditioned to obtain the required energy from fat and carbs. The protein in their food being primarily used in growing their bodies and developing muscle structure.
Then when they go into race training the trainer naturally places them on a diet that he/she believes is more healthy, such as lean beef and an expensive premium dry food, and in most instances a greyhound specific vitamin mineral mixture.
While that diet for a racing greyhound may seem the right thing to do and it certainly costs enough, in reality because of that diet the dog now has to obtain most of its energy requirements from protein instead of the fats and carbs it is used to utilizing, and in the process a considerable amount of waste product is created that has to be processed by the kidneys.
In addition to this creating problems for the waste removal part of the greyhounds body, pups in a rearing facility are used to going for a run whenever they feel like it, and while healthy pups spend a fair amount of their time running, any waste products created by what is still a fair amount of work is easily processed by the kidneys. However a greyhound in training in most instances has to have their running regulated to condition ther bodies to use all their energy in running as fast as possible over a specific distance which can and often does create a large amount of waste product to be cleared from the blood by the kidneys.
It is the combination of both a high protein diet, and the necessary regulated training that causes long term health problems with the waste removal part of the greyhounds body which primarily involves the kidneys.
During rearing a greyhound needs a reasonable amount of quality protein, not just bread and mostly fat as is unfortunately the case on many rearing farms, because of the fact that they have to grow a healthy and strong body, and that takes protein. While as a racing greyhound they primarily need food that provides easily useable energy because of the high energy requirements needed for racing, and only a moderate amount of the right types of protein to maintain muscle structure and repair any damage done by the stress created on their bodies by race training and racing.
Different types of protein contain a different range of amino acids, and it is the amino acids that are utilized by the body. Different organs and body functions require different amino acids, and therefore I believe that a healthy diet should contain a range of different proteins including those proteins provided by eggs and milk, and this applies to both adult racing greyhounds and developing pups.
The diet you have both your pups and racing greyhounds on looks pretty good to me as the dry food you are using, at least according to their label, contains most of the other diet essentials other than I have mentioned such as an expanded range of proteins easily supplied by adding a heaped teaspoon of whole milk powder to the diet on a daily basis, and a couple of soft boiled eggs every week.
In regard to just how often one should examine a racing greyhounds blood profile; I believe that providing the greyhound looks good and is performing up to expectations it is sufficient to have a look at the basic profile on a monthly basis of just the red and white blood cell count the hemoglobin levels and the packed cell volume.
Cheers, Tom
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meat
Jan 17, 2015 23:01:06 GMT 10
Post by Luddy on Jan 17, 2015 23:01:06 GMT 10
In regard to just how often one should examine a racing greyhounds blood profile; I believe that providing the greyhound looks good and is performing up to expectations it is sufficient to have a look at the basic profile on a monthly basis of just the red and white blood cell count the hemoglobin levels and the packed cell volume. That's what I thought Tom, but just wanted your valued opinion & suggestions on improvements.... so much appreciated. With the above "quote"..... & living where vets are not greyhound $$$ friendly, can you advise a better option to acquirer these blood test results ? Maybe ebay & a purchase of a machine....or something similar ? Or can you advice something that maybe beneficial. Cheers...........Steve.
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meat
Jan 18, 2015 18:11:32 GMT 10
Post by Tom Meulman on Jan 18, 2015 18:11:32 GMT 10
Hi Steve,
I'm sorry mate but as far as blood tests are concerned it's just not that simple. Even just a very basic centrifuge suitable for microcrit tubes is likely to cost around $800. to $1200. and that will only give you the Packed Cell Volume accurately, and once you become extremely familiar with examining the spun blood under high magnification it can provide additional information about the white blood cells and stress levels but that becomes mainly educated guesswork.
Once you start looking at lab equipment to provide the type of information you really need it starts getting into the thousands of dollars and then you can still have problems with getting the calibration just right.
Even becoming proficient at blood sample collection and taking that to the nearest lab yourself can become more of a problem than a saving, and it is also important that when it comes right down to it your veterinarian has the expertise to interpret the blood profile results, and is in most instances the only one that is able to provide the medication required to deal with any health problems discovered by the blood test.
Cheers, Tom
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meat
Jan 18, 2015 22:18:00 GMT 10
Post by Luddy on Jan 18, 2015 22:18:00 GMT 10
Hmmm.......Thanks Tom.
I just thought I'd ask the question on 'Blood Tests'...as I believe from experience "Up here", you don't get what you pay for due to the blood being flown down to Brisbane (or 4 hour drive) for testing.
It can take up to 12/ 24 hours before testing & then your not sure if everything was above board.
I haven't trained for 6 years but I use to get it done once or twice a year when I felt it was necessary, but the cost was rather expensive I though (back then) at around 2 to 3 hundred $$$$ a test..... and the advise given, was for the domestic pet not the athlete, which defeated the purpose at times if I didn't go looking for answers.
I'd love to get back into the training side of things soon & test my own dogs blood at will, but the experience I've had with Vets up here makes me wonder that there's a better (maybe expensive at first) alternative.
With the prizemoney on offer in the area ($500 to winner) it makes it hard to retrieve your original outlay. But if it helps with results over the next 20 years, I suppose through experience it maybe a worthy purchase over the years.
I'm not in a hurry to get back into training dogs, but at the same time I'm confused in which direction I should choose should I decide to pick up the lead & collar again...in reference to blood testing.
If $2000 (or 3...thereabouts) was put side to purchase something decent, would it be worth while or should I forget about the thought ?
Getting medication shouldn't be a problem I believe but I hear your concerns.
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meat
Jan 19, 2015 3:55:12 GMT 10
Post by Tom Meulman on Jan 19, 2015 3:55:12 GMT 10
Hi Steve, I had no idea things are that difficult in regard to blood tests in your part of the country, I guess I'm spoiled here because I can drive 10 minutes up the road here and drop blood samples into a lab in the morning, and have the results that afternoon. If that is your situation and you do take up training again the best idea would be to keep an eye out for a basic centrifuge that uses the micro hematocrit tubes, and then when you are ready to go I will endeavor to provide what information you need so that you can get the best out of out. This would give you a chance to keep a basic check on the blood as often as you wish as it only requires a drop of blood to do a basic PCV with one of those, and then only get a full profile done when your own tests show it is required. This is the type of centrifuge I mean; Micro hematocrit centrifugeCheers, Tom
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meat
Jan 20, 2015 19:40:52 GMT 10
Post by Luddy on Jan 20, 2015 19:40:52 GMT 10
Now that sounds like a good option......& at the same time I could learn something from my own experiences with your help.
Thanks Tom.
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meat
Dec 8, 2015 14:00:20 GMT 10
Post by brett on Dec 8, 2015 14:00:20 GMT 10
Tom can you please tell me the pro's and con's of freezing meat.Can you tell me what essential vitamins are destroyed when freezing the meat and what can we use to replace the vitamins with. THANK YOU
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meat
Dec 9, 2015 15:04:38 GMT 10
Post by Tom Meulman on Dec 9, 2015 15:04:38 GMT 10
Hi Brett,
Fresh meat does contain a range of B group vitamins including Vitamin B12. Unfortunately freezing meat does destroy roughly 50% of those B group vitamin, however even the addition of one B group vitamin tablet would easily replace that loss.
Freezing meat does have some benefits, and while freezing does NOT kill bacteria it does kill several of the single celled organisms that can cause digestive problems, and most importantly freezing meat for a minimum of 24 hours does destroy Neaspora cysts that may be present in the meat.
In addition meat also contains iron, zinc, and magnesium, and as far as I know freezing has no effect on their quantities or stability.
Cheers, Tom
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meat
Jun 3, 2016 8:27:57 GMT 10
via mobile
Post by Dj on Jun 3, 2016 8:27:57 GMT 10
Hi tom, why is feeding bones to racers a no no. Instead of giving cal d what would wrong with giving them some bones that they could eat in no time or even chick wing or bones ,
Is it just convenience or is there more to it
Thanks
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meat
Jun 4, 2016 19:38:17 GMT 10
Post by Tom Meulman on Jun 4, 2016 19:38:17 GMT 10
Hi DJ.
Most greyhounds when given bones often enough to make adding calcium to a meat diet no longer necessary would become severely constipated, and this interferes with performances on the race track.
While a bone on regular basis is great as it does provide a better way of adding a bit of extra calcium and other nutrients to the diet, as well as really helping to keep teeth clean. However the timing of providing a bone to chew on still has to be done in such a way that if the dog did become constipated it would not interfere with racing or even trialling behind the lure.
Cheers Tom
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